[0:00] Victoria Zablocki

Hey, everybody, welcome back to the Naturally Teaching Elementary podcast. We're back today with another fantastic interview for you, and this one is taking this podcast full circle by being all about picture books. Dan Kriesberg is on today to talk to us about picture books for fourth graders and beyond, what he looks for in picture books to use for older students, and some advice on how he's used them to teach science.

And I want to make sure that you listen all the way to the end of the episode today because my teaching tip includes an important update about this podcast, so make sure you listen all the way to the end. But let's get started with some of Dan's experiences and then let's hop into the interview.

So Dan Kriesberg has been a middle school science teacher and environmental educator for over 40 years at both public and independent schools. He's also the author of two books on outdoor environmental education, over 100 articles on environmental education and essays about his outdoor experiences. Dan has presented at national and state-wide conferences and he spends his time outdoors, backpacking, hiking and simply hanging out as much as possible.

He's also the co-creator of Diversity Education In Nature, an innovative series of workshops that uses wild nature as inspiration for building community and belonging. And you can learn more about his work at Earth Wisdom. So let's get into this really interesting conversation.

Teaching elementary-aged children is a rewarding experience, but as educators and parents, finding the time and resources to create engaging lessons can be a challenge. That's where this podcast comes in. Welcome to Naturally Teaching Elementary. I'm Victoria Zablocki, a certified elementary teacher turned outdoor educator.

With over a decade of experience coaching teachers on effective teaching methods, I'm passionate about teaching the whole child with authentic and place-based experiences in school and home settings. Join me as we explore our strategies for teaching with practical teaching tips, insightful interviews, picture book reviews, and more. So let's grow together.

[2:00] Victoria Zablocki

All right. Hey everybody. I'm so excited to bring you another wonderful interview today. If you remember way back in Episode 3, Steve Frisbee joined us to talk about teaching with books and creative ways to use picture books in your elementary classroom.

Well, today, Dan Kriesberg is on the show today to talk about using picture books for fourth graders and up. And since he is the expert on himself, I'm going to let him introduce himself in his background. So take it away, Dan.

[2:25] Dan Kriesberg

Hi. Thank you very much for having me. So my name is Dan Kriesberg. I've been an outdoor educator, slash elementary school teacher, slash science teacher for over 40 years, recently retired though. And most of that time was spent working at a Quaker school as a sixth grade science teacher. But I've also worked at outdoor residential centers and all sorts of places and excited to be here and just share some of the things I've learned along the way about integrating picture books with my outdoor education activities.

[2:58] Victoria Zablocki

Which is fantastic. If anybody has listened to my other episodes, they know that that's like speaking to my teacher heart. So we're glad to have you, Dan.

So picture books are often thought of as a tool for early childhood learners, but they can help children of all ages, something you and I both agree on. So what are some benefits you've found with using picture books for like fourth graders and up?

[3:19] Dan Kriesberg

Well, I think everybody likes being told a story. I found, and maybe it's even started when my summer camp days, when you had a story to tell, kids would just quiet down and their eyes would be glued to you. But I realized that I don't know that many stories by heart.

I didn't want to take indigenous stories and try to make them my own. So I realized that picture books could replace that. I could read the picture book like I was telling a story.

I found that even with older kids, because I found out the summer camp kind of stories, I would just start telling the story and the kids would just quiet down. It might take a little bit. They start elbowing each other and they would just start listening.

I think the same thing was working with the picture books where I would just start reading it. Most of the kids would be like, “oh yeah, we should be quiet.” Then the ones that weren't was away into getting starts.

There’s a book called Keepers of the Earth by Joseph Bruchac and Michael Caduto. I think I'm pronouncing it right. That is a book where they took Native American folk tales and then combine them with different kind of outdoor education activities.

I thought, “oh, all right,” I took picture books and connected those to outdoor education activities and that’s where it evolved. I have found with older kids, when I say middle school kids that, if I was just telling the same facts or the same idea, just for me, get some attention, it would depend, but not the same as if I'm reading it out of the picture book. Especially if it's a book I started to use more, maybe I wouldn’t have the book memorized, but enough of it memorized where I can make that eye contact.

That's always very helpful. By using the picture with older kids, if I was trying to get across the concept, I could use just more eloquent, beautiful language than I have. The authors are incredible, and to combine with the pictures, the idea or concept I was trying to say would just come out much better with the author's words than with my words.

Illustrations, they're also going to grab his attention. All ages, people learn in different ways and absorb information in different ways, and maybe they're not listening, but they're looking at the pictures. That’s always is a good connector.

Then another way I would use them with older kids too is like, over the years I accumulated a fair number of books, and sometimes just throw the books out into the classroom and say, “find a partner, two or three, go grab a pile full of books, go sit outside, let's just read just to get us in the mood.” But the fact that they can read the books independently also adds another little element to it all. So yeah, those are some of the ways that I use them with older students.

[6:02] Victoria Zablocki

That's awesome. We actually used The Keepers of the Earth, we used that one at the Nature Center that I worked at too. It's an incredible book. And I'm glad it inspired you to go and take picture books and then use those to connect to other activities. That's fantastic.

And I didn't even think about the fact that you could just take and throw books out on the table for the kids to go and read on their own. That's wonderful. And like you said, the pictures, sometimes the pictures can tell more than the words can.

And so even though you and I were talking about like fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh graders, they still are young enough that they cue into that illustration aspect, sometimes even more so than the words. And so for you to recognize that and use that, that's fantastic.

I know I've also accumulated a lot of books over the years, and each person kind of has their own criteria for what they look for in picture books for each grade level. So when you were picking books for older kids, what do you look for in quality picture books for like that fourth grade, fourth graders and beyond age?

[7:04] Dan Kriesberg

Well, because most of the time, I'm the one reading it to them. And in many ways, I would opt for like sometimes the shorter ones that just might have a few words on a page because I'm using it, not so much to teach them how to read or there, but more it's about to get a point across. And so in some ways, partly their attention span, maybe even my attention span, that I would tend to pick books that were shorter, but they had language that would grab their attention to a sort of that depth balance.

I mean, there's just so many books that they're really, it's a poem as much as it is a story. So that was certainly one aspect. Illustrations, I can't say there's like one kind of style because it would just be what would grab my attention and hopefully grab their attention.

I was also looking at thinking about what's the purpose of reading this book. I mean, sometimes it could be as simple as it's just a beautiful story. A lot of what I'm trying to do with all my outdoor education, whatever it is, is like just helping people gain a greater sense of place for where they live.

Just seeing the wonder and what's special about where they live. So whether it's trying to get a, let's say the concept is about a food chain or mutualism, but still have the books that connected, it would be to whatever they do here. Well, for me, the Northeast, Long Island, so that would be another quality.

Just like, is this going to help them understand and feel more connected to where they live? It also just telling the story in a way that I couldn't. What can this book do that I can't? And usually, it's a lot. Just, yeah, does it have the language to create that sense of wonder and questioning about what's amazing about the world? Hopefully, that makes sense.

[8:45] Victoria Zablocki

Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense and a lot of different points, too. So you have different touch points that, again, speak to different children and how they learn and making sure that you're keeping track of the whole child and how an entire child can appreciate these books and how their role in the classroom, I think that's great.

In your role as a middle school science teacher, you used picture books during your instruction, right? You talked about, like, kind of as an intro, get them intrigued. But then you also took your students outside for learning. You told me this separately from our interview. But can you share with us different ways that you've combined the two, taking picture books outside with your students?

[9:24] Dan Kriesberg

Well, a few different ways. Well, one, having an interpretive walk, you kind of walk along and let's look at this, point that out. Sometimes I've just brought the books and we've walked along and just stop, read the book, walk a little bit more, stop, read the book. And I was trying to say nothing, just resist the urge to add, just let the book speak for itself. So I've done that a few times.

Sometimes, say, it's a lesson on mutualism. And I have this game that we'll play, we'll look for some examples. So, you know, read the book, play the game, look at, you know, some lichen on a tree or some examples.

Or if it's a, you know, playing, learn about the food chain, you know, have a picture book that's connected to food chains, play a game, look for example. You know, so it just is a way of either starting the lesson. And also, you know, sometimes, especially, you know, some of the games that we'll play, you know, they're active, they're running around, they're various, you know, tag games that teach, so many tag games that can teach ecological concepts. And it's like, you know, it's like, OK, let's now we're going to settle down, listen to the book, and they're a little more like, oh, yeah, we're ready to like, just, you know, sit down for a moment.

So it can be like that. You know, sometimes they just use it just to sort of set the tone of what we're doing out here. We left the indoor classroom, we're in our outdoor classroom. Let's take a moment. It's just going to set the tone. And even if the book's not necessarily connected to directly to like the lesson, it's more just like we're outside now. Let's be here in this moment.

You know, I do a lot with journaling. So this thing that I had done, I call them nature entries, and it's a journal that they kept either they had a spot somewhere around their house in their backyard or front yard.

And then every couple, you know, well, hopefully once a week could depend a little bit. You know, they had to make some observations, draw a sketch, have some just, what are some questions you have? And, you know, there's lots of great books that are good journal prompts, or the basis of the book is a child's keeping a journal.

And there's one, you know, called Night Letters. You know, it's an older book, you know, but the character in the book, the little girl's like writing letters to the ants and writing letters to the rock. And, you know, there's just good models for journal writing. You know, they'll know the way that I would use them.

[11:38] Victoria Zablocki

That's great. I was actually going to ask you if you use books for science notebooking and you got it covered right there. So that's wonderful.

The Diana Hutts Aston books with Sylvia Long as the illustrator. I love those books for like introducing different scientific concepts to kids because they almost look like a nature journal. So I don't know if you've seen those ones, but it's like A Butterfly is Patient and A Rock is Lively. And those books, she does like nature journaling styles. And so it's like a great way to introduce science notebooking with a picture book, but it has diagrams and all that sort of stuff. So I love that.

That's fantastic. And going back to when you had mentioned place-based learning, I love that you were able to find books that were in the area, the geographical location that you live. Because I've noticed we're fortunate in the northeast section.

There's a lot of science picture books that are from our region, but I haven't noticed very many from the south. So it'd be interesting to do a look around to be able to find some, because I ran across one that was from the bayou. But then aside from that, it's primarily the northeast.

We're very fortunate in our area to have so many books that relate to our species and our plants, all that stuff. So my hope is that there will be more people that do place-based picture books so that there can be more love for the rest of our country, and continent, and Canada, some of those locations. I haven't run across very many, but maybe it's because I'm looking for Michigan-based ones. I'm not sure, but…

[13:12] Dan Kriesberg

Yeah. I mean, off the top of my head, I'm just thinking, and some of the books that I refer to in my book are older, I mean, from around the year 2000. But I know there's one, kind of Climbing Kansas Mountains, and it's about, what's the mountain in Kansas? And it's the silo, and the boy climbs up in a silo. And there's some others. And Scott Russell Sanders has one about a raft, and I think that's in the Southeast.

So there are some, but I guess it's again, that Northeast bias that we have in so many other ways in this country. But yeah, no, it's good to find one. But in some ways, what I've done is you take a book, let's say, like I'm a huge Byrd Baylor, like everything she's ever written, I think is amazing.

And she's really all set in the Southwest. And you say, look, let's write her style, but let's do it to Long Island, where I am. The thing is, you can find those books in other regions and turn it into your region, your version of a Byrd Baylor book or your version of whoever it might be that's writing about somewhere else.

[14:20] Victoria Zablocki

That's beautiful. That's wonderful. That's a great suggestion. I don't know if it's the bias, but I found one for Cape Cod and I got all excited. But again, that's Northeast. But it still was so place-based.

It was talking about the Spadefoot Toad with vernal pools. I just talked about it on my last episode. I was so excited that it was so niche and so place-based because those people, they now have that treasure to be able to celebrate something that's so specific and so special about their location. I put that, like I said, in my last episode. I'm hoping somebody from Massachusetts finds it and is really excited about it.

But anyways, I nerd out on all this stuff. I love hearing your suggestions. I know that you're talking about some of the older books, but some of those older books are just so good. Some of the books that I mention, I go in and I try to find them on Amazon so I can link them in the show notes. They're out of print. I'm like, “oh no, this is a beautiful, wonderful book. Why are we out of print?”

But hopefully people can find them at thrift shops or whatever. But some of those older books are just so good. I love to hear the names come back up.

But speaking of which, and all the love for books that we have, I'm going to ask you a tricky question. But hopefully, we were told this ahead of time. Are you able to share with us your top three favorite picture books that you like to teach with?

[15:47] Dan Kriesberg

Well, I'll cheat a little bit by saying almost anything by Byrd Baylor. But if I had to pick one book by Byrd Baylor, it would be The Table Where Rich People Sit. Basically, it's about a family that lives in the Southwest, where books are all set, and they live out in the desert, and the girl is the focus of the story, is complaining that they don't have any money.

She wants to have more money to buy better, nicer clothes. Then her parents are like, “well, I thought you knew that we were rich.” She's like, “no”, we need a meeting.

They have a family meeting. Basically, what the parents do is they go through, we're not just paid in money. We're paid by being able to see sunsets. We're paid by being able to go out for walks in a canyon. We're paid by all these things, all these outdoor, that's what makes them rich. They have her put a monetary value on these experiences, and then she realizes, no, we don't need that. She realizes that they are rich.

I just think the message is such a great important message. What I've had with kids is like, okay, what are the experiences that your life allows you to have that are beyond money? I love that book.

Secret Place by Eve Bunting. She also has many other good books, but it's set in an urban setting, which I also think is really another thing I'll look for is to remind people that there's really amazing wildlife and nature and plants and everything is going on in the middle of a city. This is set in the middle of the city, this whole secret place where there's some birds are migrating and sitting in there and it's just surrounded by the state. One of the concepts that was really cool is the boy in the story saying, well, where do the animals come from in the area? Well, they've always been here. The city grew around that here. I really like that one.

Then My Father's Hands by Joanne Ryder. The father's bringing caterpillars from the garden and different cool things in nature in his hands. I think the end line is basically, no one ever brought anything more wonderful than what I found in my father's hands. Maybe being a father and a dad struck me more.

But again, that was like a lot of these where your garden is the place to connect with wild nature. It doesn't have to be a national park or desert wilderness area that there's just our front lawn can be the place of magic. So yeah, it's hard. It's hard to pick. Can I do one more?

[18:32] Victoria Zablocki

Yeah, sure. That's fine. I know it's really hard to like narrow it down to three, but those three were wonderful and very diverse. But yes, go for one more.

[18:40] Dan Kriesberg

Okay. Well, another concept. I mean, some of it's just like concepts I like to get through. So this one's called Who Came Down That Road by George Ella Lyon. And it's kind of the idea that, there's other ones like this, like what happened in this spot 100 years ago, 1000 years ago, 10,000 years ago? And I think that's a really important concept to think we're just part of the story.

We're not the end of the story. You know, I think a lot of us just think, oh, it's the end. No, we're hopefully the beginning or the middle or certainly not the end. So I like books that kind of take people back in time in their spot.

And that's like, you know, the child, who came down the road? You know, it was a revolutionary war. Who came down the road before that? You know, the indigenous people who came down the road before that? You know, the woolly mammoth. And it kind of just goes back in time.

So if I had to pick, that's the Mount Rushmore of children's books for me, at least at the moment, till I find more.

[19:35] Victoria Zablocki

Yeah, no, that's beautiful. That's, like you said, the, looking at the message too, not even just like the fact that, okay, it's got this science concept. It's got these species I'm trying to hit because I'm trying to get this one concept.

Like, those are beautiful. And the urban, I'm glad you pointed that out because there are not a lot of like nature urban books out there. Or there are more about like the garden and using that as your wild space.

But like the urban piece, there is, it's so it can be so rich even in urban settings. And you don't have to have vast wilderness to be able to do, you know, nature-based learning, which I'm so glad that you mentioned because a lot of times I feel people are like, well, I can't do it because I don't have nature, you know, but you do. It's everywhere.

Awesome. Well, we're kind of running out of time. But is there anything else you wanted to mention? I know that you have a partner and you have this awesome program that you have. If you want to take a couple of minutes to share that, that would be wonderful.

[20:31] Dan Kriesberg

Sure. Thank you. So along with my co-practitioner, Camille Simone Edwards, we've developed a program called Diversity Education In Nature, where we're using the Earth as a role model to help build communities of empathy and belonging.

Now we look at the concept of biodiversity and how that makes an ecosystem more resilient to see how then diversity can help in the human ecosystem. We can talk about mutualism and how there are animals and plants that work together, and what can we learn from that in our own lives about working together, and about ecological interrelationships to understand how the impact we have on the decisions and the choices we make. Then another part of that is using nature awareness skills to build community.

We do a whole bunch of activities about attentiveness, and a whole bunch of activities about wonderfuling, using our sense of wonder, and about pattern seeking. And then when we, you know, basically if we're more attentive to wild nature, then we can be more attentive to each other. That's a good thing.

If we're seeing the wonder in nature, we can see the wonder in each other. That's a good thing. And by really, you know, getting in the habit of seeing patterns that really can help us understand why things are the way they are.

You know, patterns are, you know, you think about patterns can take us back in time. They can predict the future. They also really just explain the here and now, and then we can look at, “okay, what can we do to make our here and now a better place for belonging and empathy?”

And so we have all these sort of activities, outdoor activities, you know, nature activities, reflection discussion to sort of put that all together. So that's our program. That's one of the things that we're working on. People can check out our website, learn more about it, and we're here. Just try to build a community, you know, connect with people. You know, we work with schools and different organizations, and just, you know, work. Like I say, working, learning from good people, working with good people.

[22:25] Victoria Zablocki

That's great. And I'll make sure to put links for that on the show notes. And then there's also, you've had a few podcast episodes where you go into greater depth. So I'll make sure to put that in the show notes as well.

Is there a way that people can get a hold of you? I know you're retired, but if anybody has questions or anything, can, is there a way that they can get a hold of you? And you also mentioned some books that you've written. Would you like to share quickly about those two?

[22:50] Dan Kriesberg

Yeah. Well, first of all, I'm retired so I can do more of this. So yes, please reach out, please get in touch. We love, you know, talk about this. They say we're trying to build a community. I want to learn from other people.

Yeah. So they can contact us through, you know, I guess my email is kriesbergdan. So last name, first name at gmail.com. They can just email me directly, you know, go to our website. You can learn more about what we're doing. My personal website, www.dankriesberg.com. And they could learn more about that there.

I wrote a book called A Sense of Place. It's just teaching children about the environment with picture books. And then the sequel, I suppose, is Teaching Green. And that's more using picture books to teach kids about taking, you know, some kind of environmental action. It's learning more about environmental issues. So yeah, one's more about just building that connection to wherever it is you live. And some of the ecological concepts. And then the second one's more about environmental issues and what kids can do.

[23:51] Victoria Zablocki

Awesome. And I'll make sure to link those in the show notes as well. And I'll have your email address in there as well. It was a lot of information. Do you feel like we got a good amount or is there anything that we missed?

[24:02]

Yeah, I think it's good. I'll just say thank you very much for this opportunity. It's exciting to meet kindred spirits.

[24:09] Victoria Zablocki

I agree. And I appreciate your time. Thanks for coming on.

Wasn't that interview great? Dan has so much experience and passion for teaching with picture books. It gets me so excited to hear his amazing ideas and book suggestions.

[24:22]

So now it's time for that teaching tip that I mentioned. And this one is bittersweet. So if you've been a teacher, you're currently a teacher, or you know and love a teacher, you know that teachers have a lot of work on their plates.

And it is kind of a buzzword to talk about mental health right now and mental load and all of that sort of stuff. But as a teacher, I want to encourage you to make sure that you're listening to your mind and your body and recognizing when you have too much going on and you ask for help or you recognize that you need to take a break from something. And that leads me to my update for you today.

So even though I'm not currently teaching, I have reached a point in my journey where I'm unable to give this podcast the love and attention it deserves because of the other duties that I have on my plate right now. So with this 50th episode, I'm sharing with you that I've listened to my mind and have sadly decided to stop recording new episodes for the time being. I'm hoping to someday return to the mic, but for now, I'm going to have to pack it away.

I will continue to host this podcast so that you can return to the episodes and the ideas that lie within them. And I'll continue to check in on my email and Instagram messages. So please feel free to reach out with questions, brainstorming, or whatever you'd like to share.

I have very much enjoyed my time with all of you and podcasting, and I thank those that have listened week after week. I appreciate your time and your amazing feedback. It's just time for me to step away for a bit.

So for the last time, I want to thank you for taking time to listen today. I know you're busy, and I truly appreciate the time you take to tune in. If you have any questions, wonderings, or picture books for fourth graders and up that you like to use, feel free to get ahold of me on Instagram at naturally.teaching, or you can email me at victoria@naturallyteaching.com.

Don't forget to check out the show notes for this episode at naturallyteaching.com/episode50, where I have all those links that Dan mentioned today, including books that he talked about as well. So thanks again for joining me today, and I hope you keep exploring, keep learning, and keep naturally teaching. Thank you so much for tuning in to today's episode of the Naturally Teaching Elementary Podcast.

I hope you found it informative, inspiring, and full of actionable insights to enhance your teaching journey. Connect with me on social media for more updates, science tidbits, and additional resources. You can find me on Instagram and Facebook at naturally.teaching.

Let's continue the conversation and share our passion for teaching elementary age children together. Don't forget to visit my website at naturallyteaching.com for all the show notes from today's episode. If you enjoyed today's episode, please consider leaving a review on your favorite podcast platform.

Your feedback helps me improve and reach more educators like you. Thank you again for listening, and until next time, keep exploring, keep learning, and keep naturally teaching.